Jacek Bartosiak & Albert Świdziński talk about Poland’s journey from peripheral position and its prospects (Video)

Hi everyone, my name is Albert Świdziński. Welcome to another Strategy and Future podcast. We switched roles today. Usually it's Jacek who's the founder of Strategy and Future. It is usually him who starts our conversations. But we decided to swap roles today because Jacek and another colleague of ours Marek Stefan are in process of writing a new book. I I think it's the first call-up between them in the book form, which concerns Poland s role, Poland s path, Poland s travel from periphery to core. Poland historically, while obviously we like to repeat to ourselves an integral part of Europe, has been, especially in terms of

Let's not go into further details. And it lasted for several centuries until it collapsed under the weight of its own backwardness, but most importantly under the growing power of Russia, under Peter the Great and the following rulers of Russia. And then Russia entered the European game. And the former geopolitical arrangement, where the Commonwealth was an important part of it, collapsed, was destroyed. And in the modern era, the Western thinkers didn't have to take into account the old gravity. Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak, Świdziński, Albert, Poland.

Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak, Świdziński, Albert, Poland. Poland was the nice way to put it. Or the Germans called it Poland seasonal state. The Soviets called it the bastard of the Versailles Treaty. And there were many other nice words. But for the Westerners from Western Europe and from Great Britain and the United States, Poland was the country from which everybody wanted to flee. You know, if you want to become an actress or a supermodel, you went to Paris or New York.

So Poland always has two strategic dilemmas. One is how to keep Russia out of the European system of balancing game. NATO and the United States did it for us for the last 35 years. Before that, the Soviet Union was occupying us and we had also the interwar period after we had defeated the Soviet troops. But before that, only before Peter the Great, we could exist because Russia was out of the system. So now the Polish objective is to keep Russia out of the European system, which will be a very tough Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński

Is that in global terms, obviously the international order first created after 1945 and then solidified after the end of Cold War is no more. And we find ourselves in a state of flux, both in terms of Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński The heft of the state is not a defining quality that states have, that their space for maneuver in the international sphere is not limited by their raw power.

On the other hand, however, that state of flux and also, you know, things like the Western Europeans, the West in general losing its technological edge, something it's finding Names mentioned by Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński Before sort of stuck, perhaps to their own satisfaction, stuck at either semi-peripheral or subcontractor level in the global economy.

This is changing. You can see different countries in the EU taking different approaches to this. You see Spain for example looking to find itself a place in the Chinese value chains. Jacek Bartosiak, Świdziński, Albert, Poland. With it being particularly problematic for Poland because the country is too big to just ignore.

If Poland doesn't play ball, it has the potential to destabilize the region, destabilize the cooperation between Russia and the Western Europeans. It could be a thorn. And at the same time, in and of itself, it is too small to be an independent element defining the rules. Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński

Our relationship with the core of the EU will have to change in order to keep the accumulation of wealth in Poland and the capital. And that concerns the price transferring abroad and other policies and behaviors that are typical of the peripheral countries and were being kind of imposed upon us in the 90s. Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński

So this is number one. The second thing is that we are part of the EU macroeconomic system and it will be EU that will be negotiating with China. And what the big countries of EU and EU institutions will decide whether EU is a proxy of the United States in this new Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński

Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak, Świdziński, Albert, Poland You know, at the very same time where the western middle classes in general were being hollowed out. So that is an interesting paradox. And again, you need petty bourgeoisie if you have an ambitious project. So that is a fortunate Podróż Polska do middle class to była bardzo trudna droga. Inna od wschodniej drogi sowieckiej.

We did it in a different way. And then the revolution of the fall of the Soviet Union and joining EU and the Western system removed the feudalism in the private sector, but people are equal in Poland, like women. Jacek Bartosiak, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński It was free of charge and so on.

Wszelkie prawa zastrzeżone. Dziękuję za to, że byliście z nami dzisiaj i wrócimy w kolejnym tygodniu. Dziękuję, Albert. Bądźcie z nami. Mieliśmy ostatni podcast z Benem Hodgesem, poprzednim komendantem Unii Europejskiej, który zaprasza was do obejrzenia. Poznajcie nas, podążajcie za nami. Każdego tygodnia opowiadamy o najważniejszych problemach, Jacek Bartosiak Albert Świdziński